General Discussions => Airspace files => Other countries => Topic started by: Andrej Kolar on February 15, 2007, 10:20:46 am
Title: Italian airspace
Post by: Andrej Kolar on February 15, 2007, 10:20:46 am
Many pilots are preparing airspace files for various countries. We (the gliding community in the Alps) are missing an interested pilot who would keep track of italian airspaces. They are missing in the set of Austrian, German, Slovenian, Swiss and French airspace files.
Team Naviter would be happy to sponsor SeeYou and SeeYou Mobile licenses in exchange for your work with keeping up the Italian Airspace Database.
The AIP Italy is available in electronic form here: http://www.enav.it/aip/aip_eng.asp (signup is free, see chapter ENR)
If you need more information, feel free to contact us through this forum or email.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on August 29, 2007, 01:57:37 pm
Hi Andrej,
About the Italian airspaces, I have got the documents from ENAV. Now that my SeeYou demo version is expired, how can I create the SeeYou airspace files? Is there any editor available?
Also, I think that the main issue isn't to write down the first edition, but taking care about updates form real world. Which is the required update frequency (or delay)?
Thanks for your answer. Mauro Santandrea
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: Andrej Kolar on August 30, 2007, 10:55:48 am
Mauro - I certainly agree. It is important to keep the database up-to-date not just to convert it once. The big job is of course to create a database to start from, then updating is much easier.
Normally the updates are yearly. The airspace doesn't change that often. Some countries make bi-annual updates or even more often. Updates are normally very small - a matter of a few minutes.
The easiest way is to copy and paste data from AIP to a text file and to make the data readable in Open Air or Tim Newport Peace formats.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on August 30, 2007, 12:01:30 pm
OKl, let me try...
Title: Italian airspace
Post by: Simon M on October 06, 2007, 02:35:16 pm
Mauro, How's it going with the Italian airspace database ?
Saluti,
Simon
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on October 06, 2007, 05:46:00 pm
Mauro, How's it going with the Italian airspace database ?
Hi Simon,
I finished to insert all the class C and D airspace data into a worksheet, and I found a way to calculate the tangent points when connecting two circles with lines on the Earth surface. Unfortunately, the ENAV documents don't use only lines and arches for defining the airspaces. With this method I can revert the circles-and-tangents format into a commonly used lines-and-arches format.
Now I have to write the code for converting the data in the required format. I think to release a beta version within the next week, with the C and D airspaces only. In this way I can easily manage the updates.
The next step is to insert all data about dangerous zones, such as military firing zones, etc. With the worksheet system, this should be quite quick.
Regards, Mauro
Title: Italian airspace
Post by: Simon M on October 06, 2007, 06:04:11 pm
Superb Mauro, It sounds like you'll produce a masterpiece. Very much looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work. BRGDS. Simon
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on October 14, 2007, 02:09:02 am
Superb Mauro, It sounds like you'll produce a masterpiece. Very much looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work. BRGDS. Simon
Hello Simon,
the time has come! :-) The first Italian Airspace release, with C and D class CTRs is ready.
When possible, I always used the data straight from ENAV documents. But sometime these documents give the information in a not-so-easy-to-program way. For example, when an airpace is defined as two circles joined by tangents, I had to calculate the points of tangency. To tell the truth, when I compare the coordinates coming from my computations with those from DAFIF data (e.g.: EuroSpace), I can see a little difference (a few seconds).
I used a WGS84 ellipsoid model, but I don't know how DAFIF are calculated, so I can't tell the reason of this difference. If anybody can explain how DAFIF are calculated, and the reason of that difference, I would be happy to hear.
Because of that difference, I would like to warn all the potential users: even if I put the maximum care in copying the data from ENAV documents and in programming the data conversion macros, this does NOT mean that my document is error-free. It is given without warranties, and can be used "AT YOUR OWN RISK".
Anyway, I also compared my work with ENAV maps, and it looks OK. The file I produced is in OpenAir format. How can I send it to you?
P.S.: many thanks to Ed Williams for his great work, from which I derived my worksheet.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: fedep on October 17, 2007, 10:43:16 am
Hi Mauro, I would like to see this masterpiece. Please send me your italian airspace file here: Deleted due to danger of spam
Thanks a lot Ciaoooo Federico
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on October 17, 2007, 12:02:40 pm
Ehm... Thanks, but is not -yet- :) a masterpiece.... Actually, is a beta version, with only C and D CTR zones. I'm adding other kind of zones such as ATZ, dangerous, forbidden, restricted, military firing zones, etc. As soon as the job is finished, I'll post it here.
Anyway, I sent you my file, just for having a look. Please, feel free to send me any suggestion.
Ciao.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: fedep on October 17, 2007, 12:18:42 pm
Mmmmhhh, some problems i guess. I can't send you private messagge and i did not get any email from you. Please try again with this address, just to be sure: Deleted due to danger of spam Ciao Federico
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on October 27, 2007, 07:59:45 am
More spaces are available.
I added Dangerous zones, Prohibited zones, Temporarily Segregated Areas, Military ATZ and Military Firing Zones.
My file still lacks of ATZ (which are inside the CTRs), TMAs and Airways, but it should be useful anyway for free flight, especially for hang gliding and paragliding.
A question for experts: mostly, the Italian CTRs are "D" class zones, but some of them are "C" class and Milan Malpensa airspace is defined as "A" class. In the Airspace file format, if I define the CTR as "CTR", it is always shown as "D" class. If I define it as "A" or "C", it is not shown as CTR. Should I define the CTRs as "CTR" or as A, C and D zones? ???
The pre-release is available via e-mail: mausan66_AT_tiscali.it Because of my work I'm traveling often so, if you don't receive an immediate answer, please be patient...
Ciao
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: pete on November 17, 2007, 11:32:48 pm
Hello Mauro,
in the german airspace file I´ve defined all CTR´s as "CTR" and I suggested my colleagues preparing the dutch, french. swiss and austrian files to do it in the same way. From my point of view it makes more sense to see very clear that an airspace is a CTR and I have to call on the Tower-frequency to get a clearance (there is no difference if the airspace class is C, D or something else).
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on November 18, 2007, 08:57:22 am
From my point of view it makes more sense to see very clear that an airspace is a CTR and I have to call on the Tower-frequency to get a clearance (there is no difference if the airspace class is C, D or something else).
Hi, Pete
Thanks for your help.
I'm a paraglider pilot so I'm not familiar with tower communication procedures. To me every kind of airspace is just something to keep out from. :o Let's take it as a standard. I'll change my file as you say.
About the Italian Airspace file, I'm actually working for inserting the National Parks data (this looks like the most complex part of the job). Should I post the part of the file I did until now? In affirmative case, how I can do it?
Regards, Mauro
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: Andrej Kolar on November 18, 2007, 12:16:52 pm
Affirm, Mauro! The best way to do it is to attach the file to this post.
If you used the "Reply" button to answer you will see that between input text box and POST button there is "Additional Options". Click on that to open the pane, then upload the attachment.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: mausan66 on November 18, 2007, 02:46:24 pm
OK, attached to this post you'll find the job done until today.
This file contains all data from the following ENAV documents: ENR 2.1.3 - Approach Control Zones ENR 2.1.5 - Military Aerodrome Traffic Zones of airports/heliports not open to civil traffic ENR 5.1.1 - Prohibited Areas ENR 5.1.2 - Restricted Areas ENR 5.1.3 - Danger Areas ENR 5.1.4 - Temporary Segregated Areas ENR 5.2.1 - Military Firing Areas
I'm currently working on ENR 5.6.3 - Interdiction to overfly and/or to land on Protected Areas (natural parks and areas subject to natural fauna protection). There are a lot of this, especially on Alps! I planned to dedicate more time to this work during Christmas holidays, and to release the version 1.0 (or "2008.0") of this file on January 2008.
Until then, please enjoy my file, and feel free to contact me for any issue and/or suggestion.
Ciao, and Happy Landings! Mauro
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: falkensg on December 04, 2007, 08:45:57 am
Hello Mauro,
I have wrote a file in OpenAir of the North-East part last spring for our soaring purposes. The file is attached below.
A lot of the nationalparks are not a problem for gliders and similar planes, because they are only effective for motorplanes (aeroplanes!). This was the way I unterstood the Italian AIP, but maybe the original version written in Italian will give a clearer view.
There are a lot of Airways in Italy, which make the Airspace a lot more unclear than it is anyway. I only took the Airways below FL 195, because above FL 195 there is Class C in Italy.
You should normally can delete Vipiteno (Restricted Area) because the reason for it is heave glider activity.
When I wrote the file it was also not very clear to me what's up with TMA Milano and the VFR Sectors. I unterstood it this way that in the VFR Sectors of TMA Milano Transponder (Mode A and C) is mandatory. So the entire area of TMA Milano wouldn't be allowed to use without Transponder.
The Class E in Italy also seems to be a bit different to other countries, You also need a Transponder to be allowed to fly there.
kind regards,
Georg
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: FreeWing on January 10, 2009, 02:47:54 pm
Hello,
1. how can I insert this NO-FLY-ZONE to the database on airspaces? http://www.aecaosta.it/dbext/parco2002.htm (look at the bottom of the page) Can I use SeeYou (desktop), and how can I insert lines?
2. how can I export in the .cub file the airspaces?
3. how can I import the .txt file in mt SeeYou mobile so that I can see it?
THX!
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: falkensg on January 10, 2009, 08:02:39 pm
Here You find a brief describtion how to enter a new airspace in the OpenAir-file (just open it with the editor)
I think there is no possibility to convert from OpenAir to .cub-file for Naviter purposes. The only way is to open the OpenAir-file You created in SeeYou-Desktop and export it with the connection manager to the mobile device.
I hope this helps You.
kind regards,
Georg
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: FreeWing on January 10, 2009, 10:25:15 pm
Well, not sure what the "connection manager" (can you explain, please?) is, but I understand the OpenAir format. I'm trying to; thanks! :)
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: falkensg on January 11, 2009, 08:18:29 pm
Sorry, I meant the mobile manager in the seeyou-desktop-program.
kind regards,
Georg
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: diedl on June 15, 2009, 03:38:59 pm
Hi,
First of all: Thanks a lot for providing the file of italian airspaces, which helps a lot especially with the military firing areas! Unfortunately it´s quite confusing, for example when flying in the area of bolzano, as there are too much airways that disturb while not really concerning in thermal flying.
The chance to simply hide the waste airspaces by deselecting "airways" does not work, as all of the italian airways are also labeled as "class d" airspace!
Is it possible to change that for further airspace packages and label the italian airways only as "airways"?
Thanks a lot, Alex.
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: falkensg on June 28, 2009, 08:29:47 am
The problem with the airways is that a lot of programs cannot read them, therefore they were definded as Class C or D. To remove them You only need to open the file with the text-editor and remove them.
For OpenAir-format there even exist no definition of airways. In TimNewportPeace it exists, but only a few programs run on TimNewportPeace and have problems to display it (but SeeYou can display these airways).
kind regards,
Georg
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: diedl on August 19, 2009, 07:07:49 pm
Hi Georg,
The problem is that the airspace delivered by SeeYou is not human-readable, at least for me!
As you said, SeeYou is able to display airways! So I would think, that the airspace that is suggested to be used only with SeeYou, should be in the appropriate format.
So this is maybe the duty of the Naviter guys!
Thanks a lot, Alex
Title: Re: Italian airspace
Post by: Andrej Kolar on August 21, 2009, 12:43:49 pm
Maybe I don't understand. Human readable format is attached to the first post, you may edit it any way you like. You may convert it back to unreadable CUB format with SeeYou > File > Mobile Wizard. Let me know if you need more help.
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