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v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
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Offline bgibbons

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v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« on: June 01, 2009, 03:05:51 am »
Upgraded to v3.94 and noticed that the "Soaring begin" time in the Statistics Summary is in error. Typically only a few hundred feet after tow start. A quick check with an earlier version on another computer with the same igc shows the earlier version showing the correct tow release height.

Bob
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2009, 07:53:03 am »
Noticed the same thing. SeeYou scores all flights from takeoff now. This was working fine in 3.91. This may explain why I recently noticed many flights posted on olc with wrong start. Hope this can be fixed quickly or please make 3.91 available for download till this is fixed.

Thanks,

Ramy
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 06:55:51 am »
I find it strange that there is no reply from the SeeYou team on this issue. All flights submitted via SeeYou v3.94 are scored wrongly on OLC, for example my 15 miles tow today got scored as part of the flight. Tow release is no lonegr recognized. I am sure many are not aware of the fact that they receive extra points on olc for their tows. I wish the SeeYpou team would expedite a fix.

Ramy
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Offline Andrej Kolar

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 09:55:15 am »
Sometimes we have to fly ourselves - we just finished our nationals. Sorry for not being able to respond quickly in this time.

It seems that this does not happen for all flights - please post a few links to flights where this does happen or email them to support at naviter dot com.

Thank you.
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 07:38:35 pm »
And I though you guys are online days and nights when you don't fly :-)
It happened to 2 out of 2 flights I posted to OLC since I upgraded to 3.94. One has a low release followed by immediate turn, the other has a high tow release followed by long glide (both used to be detected accurately by SeeYou). I already corrected it on OLC, but if you download the igc file to SeeYou you should see the problem. Here are the links:

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-1100304963
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-1096379431

Thanks,

Ramy
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Offline gens

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 10:21:54 pm »
I have exactly the same issue as Ramy. The soaring always begins around 180 ft even if I released at 6500 ft.
Manually correcting the soaring begin time is becoming painful. I have to modify the zoom level of the altitude graph, scroll it (which tends to be slippy) to find the release point while looking at 2D map to find out when I made the release turn.

-Gen
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 10:44:54 pm »
Yep, and the problem is that only few will bother adjusting their scores, which is also only possible within the allowed olc submit time window. Meanwhile 3.94 is still available to download so more and more olc scores are wrong. At the end of the olc season, winners will be announced based on erronous scores. In the area where I fly, where most tows are 6000 feet and 20 miles long, this can result in extra 50 points per flight. I think these type of bugs require immediate attention and this version should be removed from the download page until it is fixed.

Ramy
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 05:35:20 am »
This is turning into a monologue...
While the SeeYou team is (presumably) working on a fix, where can I download V3.92 which was working fine? I can't find it on the web site.
I realize that European pilots may not care about tow release as they usually winch launch and release right over the airport, but I, and hopefully other OLC participants who aerotows, would rather get scored correctly.

Thanks,

Ramy
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Offline Wojtus

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 09:29:59 pm »
Determining release point is sometimes difficult even to humans analysing the flight track. Don't expect SeeYou to be always accurate. Are you sure OLC does not allow specifying the release point manually?
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Offline bgibbons

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 10:13:33 pm »
Wojtus, on your point, remember that for years in the past, SeeYou has had no difficutly in determining tow release point. This problem has only surfaced with the recent release of v3.94. Almost certainly some change in this version has broken the algorithm used to determine tow release height.

One other point, we can always use the Direct Claim panel on the OLC website. Their algorithm remains reliable and accurate.

Bob
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 06:00:23 am »
Correct. Both SeeYou and OLC used same (or similar) algorithm with identical results, which were accurate 95% of the time with pure gliders (mush less with motorgliders). But the algorithm is broken in 3.94 (released more than 2 weeks ago) and as a result ALL flights are scored (optimized) from 100 feet or so AGL. The same flights will be optimized correctly with 3.92 (I did not try 3.93) but wrongly with 3.94.  As Bob said, most likely something in 3.94 broke it, and as such, should have been an easy fix. So I am surprised it is taking so long. Meanwhile at least there should have been a notice on the web site for those who are downloading the new version, not to use it to submit to OLC. As other noted, OLC is still scoring correctly when using direct claim, it is just few extra steps.

Ramy
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Offline Andrej Kolar

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 09:43:12 pm »
problem solved. If you need a quick fix, version is available as beta (please write to support at naviter dot com) or else it will be available shortly for download.
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 06:33:59 pm »
Thanks Andrej, but I still don't see the new version. Am I missing something? I don't need the beta fix myself since I am aware of the issue and as such am submitting directly to OLC, but most pilots are not aware, and as such not aware of the beta fix, and continue posting invalid claims. It is over a month since it was first reported, and meanwhile the olc is full of hundreds if not thousands of invalid claims. Everyday that goes by, more invalid claims are posted. (I am considering a flight which is scored from takeoff instead of release as invalid claim). I contacted OLC about it and they were not even aware that OLC is using the SeeYou optimized start. I don't know what they will do with all the invalid scores, but I would expect Team SeeYou to post a fix asap and warn it's users about it.

Thanks,

Ramy
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Offline ramyyanetz

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2009, 06:51:01 pm »
Quote from: Andrej Kolar on June 19, 2009, 09:43:12 pm
problem solved. If you need a quick fix, version is available as beta (please write to support at naviter dot com) or else it will be available shortly for download.

Andrej, unless I am missing something, I still don't see the fix/new version available for download. This is very disapointing.
Let's see: An issue was reported on 6/1/09, a fix was available on 6/19, yet until now it was not posted?? As a result, enyone who used SeeYou to post flights to OLC in 2009 and took more than a local tow, got extra points for their tow distance and no altitude penalty on OLC.
And now a new OLC season just started, so isn't it time to get this fixed?? The current solution is of course to use OLC direct claim instead of SeeYou, but is this your intention?

Ramy
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Offline Andrej Kolar

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Re: v3.94 Gives Erroneous Tow Release
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 06:18:57 am »
Hi Ramy, the version is due any day now, but otherwise we don't see a big problem with the way the upgrade was handled. The fix is available so anyone who knew about the problem was able to solve it. Even if we posted a new version immediately most users would not have upgraded.

One more important note about the OLC. It is run on honorary system. If you see that one person's flight was scored badly - and especially if that created an unfair sporting advantage - you should report the problem to OLC. They will correct it, the sport will be catered and the software around OLC will become one little bit better each time.

Happy flying.
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